{"id":12923,"date":"2018-12-13T11:03:07","date_gmt":"2018-12-13T19:03:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/Becomeimmersed.com\/?p=12923"},"modified":"2019-12-11T19:05:35","modified_gmt":"2019-12-12T03:05:35","slug":"cost-immersive-interview-justin-fix","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/becomeimmersed.com\/cost-immersive-interview-justin-fix\/","title":{"rendered":"The Cost of Immersive Theater – A Conversation with Justin Fix"},"content":{"rendered":"

Below is an interview with Justin Fix of Just Fix It Productions<\/a>, detailing the cost, risks, lessons, and recommendations that all go into running an immersive company and producing an experience. Use it as a primer or do your own thing\u2014this is only meant as a helpful document for those who want to learn from someone who has seen success in this space. <\/em><\/p>\n

Thank you to Erik Blair for transcribing the initial interview, to Lacey Rae for helping organize quotes, and to Justin Fix for providing his expertise that I think will prove essential to the immersive market for years to come. <\/em><\/p>\n

Immersive theater is growing exponentially in Los Angeles\u2014and across companies, it varies in production costs, number of actors, locales used, and audience size. But despite the differences, the one unifying theme is that they are businesses<\/a> and need to be run as such. This includes hiring a staff, securing insurance, dealing with the city, managing public relations, holding auditions and rehearsals, finding a space, renting props, and much, much more.<\/p>\n

This article addresses some of the most common questions we receive at Immersed and utilizes the expertise and experience of Justin Fix of Just Fix It Productions<\/a> (CreepLA<\/a><\/em>, Entry<\/a><\/em>, LORE<\/a><\/em>, Awake<\/a><\/em>, & The Willows<\/a><\/em>) to provide in-depth insight to these issues and to the cost of immersive theater with real numbers.<\/p>\n

This is a must-read for any creator, new and established, to the immersive realm.<\/p>\n

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\"lore<\/p>\n

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BUSINESS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

What is your goal?<\/strong><\/h4>\n

To start any business or company, the first thing to decide is what exactly your company is going to be. That sounds like a simple question, but there\u2019s a lot to decide before you even get to your first experience. Researching your market, namely your audience demographics, other companies in the space, and industry trends, can help you define your own niche, meet a consumer need, and stand out in a booming theatrical field. Developing a strong brand identity can also help. But ultimately, what drives your company will be its mission, vision, and values.<\/p>\n

Fix suggests that knowing your strengths can help determine your mission and priorities\u2014which will inform your desired budget allocation. A company like Scout Expedition Co.<\/a> that has a strong background in set design put their focus (and money) towards that, while a company like They Played Productions<\/a>,<\/u> that prioritized interactivity, placed a focus on strong actors with improv skills over expansive sets. \u201cMaybe acting is third on your tier; maybe the first ones are more akin to escape rooms and puzzles,\u201d Fix explains. \u201cIt\u2019s just how you want to come to market.\u201d<\/p>\n

When you\u2019re ready to make yourself known, then you have to set up your LLC, buy your domain, and build out your website. Fix admits, \u201cWe did that scrappy. We bought a SquareSpace account and a domain through GoDaddy. We did all our email blasts through MailChimp and used Quickbooks for accounting.\u201d These are all monthly costs that require minimal upkeep but can add up quickly.<\/p>\n

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\"CreepLA<\/p>\n

<\/h4>\n

The Cost of Your Experience<\/strong><\/h4>\n

With a relative idea of what your company wants to produce, you can begin to determine costs of an upcoming experience: are you making a small intimate one-on-one show from the comfort of your own apartment or are you producing a large warehouse show with thousands of people going through in a singular run? While the logistics and costs are vastly different between the two, determining a budget is essential to understand ticket prices.<\/p>\n

Fix tells us for his first year 3,200 people went through their experience. This number rose to 3,800 in year two and grew further to 4,200 in year three. Despite the growth in visitation, his scope grew as well\u2014the length of his shows increased from 30 minutes in year one to a full hour in year three. This shift was reflected in his ticket prices as they went \u201cfrom $40 to $55 to maxing out at $75\u201d in their third year.<\/p>\n

In an artform with narrow margins, it is common knowledge that actors, photographers, and other artists aren\u2019t always paid for their work. Some companies hire their friends or do the work themselves. But paying other artists is something that Fix feels strongly about and incorporates into the values of Just Fix It Productions. Fix tells us that it\u2019s often easy to find someone to do some of the work for free\u2014but to him, \u201c(Performers) have worked so hard to put a price point on their work, and I feel a duty to show them that they\u2019re deserving of this.\u201d<\/p>\n

Despite the large cost of his talent, Fix tells us his biggest expense is his space. Fix estimates the monthly rent to be about $15,000 on average, with trash ($500 per month) and utilities ($780 per month) on top of that. He laments that he does not have a space that he owns, suggesting that that is \u201cthe best way to make money off this thing because then you can produce anything year-round in it.\u201d<\/p>\n

Secondly, for him, roughly thirty percent goes toward press and exposure. Obviously, this number will differ greatly across the diverse scope of immersive creators, as a small 30-person show can survive off word of mouth and small-scale press, while something that requires a throughput of 4,500 will require a bit more publicity. To put this in context, Fix tells us that for LORE, they spent close to $18,000 on publicity over the course of the run. \u201cYou can put up an entire show for that\u2014and here we\u2019re putting that in just one of our channels.\u201d This is a choice you must make when deciding on your company image, scale, and scope.<\/p>\n

Ultimately, this is a hard industry to turn a profit, no matter the scale of your production. For Fix, he\u2019s \u201creinvested all of (his) profits, year after year after year to make the next year better.\u201d Much like others in the immersive realm, he clarifies that this is not the industry for earning a large paycheck. \u201cI\u2019ve paid myself nothing all three years because I\u2019m trying to build a company. If you\u2019re in it for the money, you\u2019re in the wrong business.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"The<\/p>\n

Insurance<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cIf you\u2019re going to open up an LLC, if you\u2019re going to open up a business, if you\u2019re going to perform in a space, you need to have insurance, protect yourself, and protect those who are coming in.\u201d Fix feels strongly enough about this that he expanded his insurance coverage in his third year. Before that, he \u201cused to do it only specifically tied to the address that we were occupying for those eight weeks.\u201d Now, he uses a policy that extends the full year. \u201cWhatever project we touch, whatever we do, at least I know my employees and my guests are protected.\u201d<\/p>\n

He states that it\u2019s tough to find the right insurance\u2014a lot of insurance companies don\u2019t understand the stuff that they do. Describing yourself clearly is key. Fix explains to companies that he is \u201ca three-hundred-and-sixty-degree immersive walkthrough; it\u2019s like an attraction or play, but you walk through it as you go from scene to scene. But yeah, they still don\u2019t really get it.\u201d<\/p>\n

In terms of policy, Fix says that he usually runs with a one-million to three-million-dollar policy. (or even more, depending on show requirements when working with a major studio, like with LORE).<\/p>\n

He states that there are brokers who specialize in entertainment like this, just like others specialize in music. These brokers can insure all your costumes, your makeup, and your sets. But this brings another issue: doubling up on insurance. \u201cDo my vendors already have insurance on all their stuff\u2014do I need additional insurance for each vendor because that adds an additional $50 for every vendor I add to my insurance policy?\u201d Fix recommends checking with vendors to see if they have insurance because there\u2019s no point in paying extra. \u201cWe had to do that with the trees [in LORE] and with the lighting company. Above just the basic profile, we had to do additional add-ons.\u201d<\/p>\n

He also recommends checking with the space. For smaller companies, you may be able to be added onto the insurance for the location. At The Reef, the location for LORE, that was not the case\u2014but we have heard places like Zombie Joe\u2019s Underground<\/a> do allow for this.<\/p>\n

Contingency<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix stresses the importance of having a projected budget at the start and tracking that over the course of your experience. \u201cBasically, put together an Excel sheet of what you think you\u2019re expenses will be, how you\u2019re going to do it, and so on. Because if you\u2019re not keeping an up-to-date tracker of your budget, you won\u2019t know. What we normally do in our budgets is set a 20% contingency on it. This 20% covers all of our incidentals: whether we buy the crew pizza or a light breaks or the floors get damaged or we need to buy more wood chips. Normally, our budget only continues to climb.\u201d<\/p>\n

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The Willows<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

ACTORS & REHEARSALS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

So now you have an idea of what you want to produce, a very rough budget, and maybe you\u2019re in talks with insurance\u2014it\u2019s time to start developing the experience. The following sections can be explored in any order, but first we\u2019ll tackle actors and rehearsals needed.<\/p>\n

Job Boards<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix recommends posting on job boards like Backstage.com. He explains that these sites charge \u201cdirectors or producers a fee to post our work to get talent. So depending on whatever website you\u2019re choosing to post your work on, those each come with their own basic fee.\u201d<\/p>\n

But for those looking to cut costs, Fix admits, \u201cWe honestly had no money our first year, so we did everything through Craigslist.\u201d<\/p>\n

Social Media & Word of Mouth<\/strong><\/h4>\n

With the growth of the immersive community, Fix also suggests that using the immersive community (like our sister site Haunting’s Slack<\/a>) to find actors can be helpful. \u201cWord of mouth and social media posts has been such a great way to hire actors.\u201d Reaching out to other creators, current actors, or even friends can provide another strong alternative to job boards. \u201cThis is such a small community; I think that\u2019s why audiences see so many recurring faces. Only certain performers can really pull off this type of work.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix also states, \u201cIf we have people who are fans of this work\u2014and some of those people are actually actors\u2014this is a great avenue for finding talent.\u201d He discusses that an email blast to your general audience can help let them know an opportunity exists. This is also something to add to your website: \u201cWe have a sign-up tab where we say if you\u2019re interested in being part of the company to sign up here. This way, whether you have a show running or not, you have a list to pull from when you are ready to cast.\u201d<\/p>\n

An Ensemble; A Family<\/strong><\/h4>\n

CreepLA has been one of the most successful companies at creating a familial vibe among its actors. This is a main focal point for Fix, \u201cI want to build a company ensemble. My number one focus is always on the talent. Look at a person like Misha Reeves\u2014she has been in every single one of our shows.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI want it to be a company that if I have a show going on, I can just ask my actors, \u2018Got another show happening; you interested?\u2019\u201d Fix compares this mentality to other companies like Delusion<\/a>, in which Jon Braver cares for his actors and re-uses his talent year after year.<\/p>\n

Rehearsal Process<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix notes that he does \u201cspend a lot of money on the rehearsal process.\u201d For LORE, he did not have the space until September 1st<\/sup>, which necessitated finding a space to rehearse all of August. \u201cWe rented out a bunch of old dance studios that were open during the day. A lot of the actors\u2019 classrooms are just too small to work a large show with theatrics. We also were able to do some one-on-one practice at a nice studio called Space Station.\u201d<\/p>\n

But as the point of this article is the cost, Fix reminds us that each of these spaces charges an hourly rate\u2014and depending on how many times you want to work, you are paying a lot before you ever get into the space. For example, eight rehearsals at $40 per hour for a four-hour rehearsal costs $1,280.<\/p>\n

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\"CreepLA<\/p>\n

THE SPACE<\/strong><\/h3>\n

Location is a key differentiator in immersive experiences. Numerous creators have found this artform attractive due to the low barrier to entry: productions can be staged out of their own apartment or in the real world. The return on investment in these shows is more often in the green. While Fix admires these small, home-centric experiences and loves their intimacy, he is much more interested in exploring cinematic scale.<\/p>\n

Much More Than Just Rent<\/strong><\/h4>\n

While rent is the largest cost, there are many hidden costs people don\u2019t think about. \u201cPeople charge you for power; people charge you for water; people charge you for trash. This stuff is just not free.\u201d But even the concept of striking an entire show has associated costs. Fix ponders, \u201cWhere are we going to throw all these feathers, and all these hay bales? What we found out is that you need to rent a dump, a large trashcan\u2014and then you need to pay the garbage person to come pick it up.\u201d<\/p>\n

Beyond that, Fix had to rewire some power during their first year because \u201cWe used a warehouse space that only had a few outlets and we needed more\u2014which required drawing more power.\u201d It would be ideal to enter a space that is show-ready, but it\u2019s not always that simple.<\/p>\n

To reduce costs, Fix started off \u201cwith black plastic walls in year one\u2014but now we\u2019ve slowly tried to redefine our experiences to enhance our narratives.\u201d But rather than entering homes with walls, Fix has opted to rent out large, empty warehouses and build them from the ground up. \u201cIt\u2019s an ambitious thing, but it\u2019s the only way I knew how to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n

A Balancing Act<\/strong><\/h4>\n

With LORE, they did not have to rewire anything and were even able to offset some costs because they chose a space that came with lighting. He says the rent was a little higher, but the reduced cost of lighting helped offset that. \u201cIt\u2019s all about monitoring a budget. If I\u2019m going to get there<\/em>, then I have to balance here<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n

But Fix is quick to note, \u201cthere\u2019s only certain things you can shave down before you either start looking cheap or things come off as having a poor aesthetic. You never want guests leaving saying \u2018Really? I paid $60 for that?\u201d There\u2019s been fantastic experiences that have done so much with a small space: Scout Expedition Co\u2019s The Nest<\/em> and Zombie Joe\u2019s Underground Theatre<\/a>\u2019s Urban Death<\/em> come to mind. But Fix likes the expansiveness of the warehouse \u2014 \u201cI just wanted people to be able to travel and move.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"The<\/p>\n

A Transportive Experience<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Much like Annie Lesser\u2019s ABC Project<\/a>, which builds narratives based on various locations, The Willows<\/em> was built around the family\u2019s house. \u201cWith The Willows<\/em>, that home inspired our entire narrative.\u201d But their Halloween shows, start in a black box shell, that each year Fix adds more and more to. He structures it similar to a haunted house: \u201cThe timed entry and small groups pulse from room to room\u201d and that influences the structure.<\/p>\n

With Awake (year four), Fix looked for \u201ca space with great bones and structure that provided more of a divided space that feels like multiple layers of a world. This allows for a change of scenery in each area and makes people say, \u2018Oh, I\u2019ve only been here for five minutes, but it feels like twenty.\u2019\u201d In this manner, it\u2019s not the size of the space that\u2019s important, but how you use it. Screenshot Productions<\/a>\u2019 original Fear is What We Learned Here<\/em> is a great example: a labyrinthine maze of black tarps that literally shifted as guests moved through the space. This all occurred in a household garage but gave the illusion of it being the size of a warehouse.<\/p>\n

Fix follows a similar mentality: \u201cWith everything we try to do, we always try to do a lot with a little.\u201d And it seems to be recognized because Amazon approached them to collaborate on LORE. \u201cOur space for Entry [year two] was almost double the size of what we had for LORE [year three], but everyone thought LORE was so much bigger. And that\u2019s just because we\u2019ve gotten smarter on how we lay out our experiences.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"CreepLA<\/p>\n

PRODUCTION RENTALS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

To Rent or To Buy?<\/strong><\/h4>\n

The first two years, Fix was renting all of his sets, props, lights, audio, costumes, and more. When he looked at his books, he saw that over three months of running an experience, \u201cYou\u2019re actually spending more money renting it, when you could just buy it for cheaper.\u201d Fix describes this as a big \u201cA-ha!\u201d moment for him. Entering LORE, he began to buy his own production inventory\u2014and then ran into a different problem.<\/p>\n

\u201cOh my God, what I am going to do with all this stuff?\u201d Fix went out and purchased a storage unit\u2014adding in more costs. Fix equates it to a game of tug of war between the two. Again, it depends on the scope, size, and theme of your production, but consider all factors when determining whether to rent or buy.<\/p>\n

Reuse of Props<\/strong><\/h4>\n

To buy props and furniture, Fix reiterates the sentiment of other companies: \u201cWe go to Goodwill, yard sales, estates sales. We also use prop houses for special items.\u201d Some items justify the increased cost to build the aesthetic Fix wants: \u201cWith The Willows<\/em>, we lit every room with candles because I loved the tone and environment. But candles are expensive.\u201d Fix then tries to reuse props when he can: \u201cWe had a lot of props from The Willows<\/em> in LORE.\u201d<\/p>\n

Conforming to fire-code is also a concern. All flats must be fire-retardant\u2014and fire-retardant fabrics are expensive (As of this interview, Fix quotes $550 a roll). \u201cI\u2019ve kept all of our fabric year after year because I am not throwing that stuff away\u2014it\u2019s so expensive. Everyone laughs at me because my storage unit is basically just a bunch of boxes of black tarps. But I don\u2019t care because I use it every year.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cWhen we\u2019ve done our ribbon rooms in the past, those ribbons are used year after year. And that\u2019s when you can start saving money. Doing that each year, amassing more props you can reuse, only serves you to save money and get smarter.\u201d<\/p>\n

Finally, as one last money-saving tip, Fix recommends taking items that are not needed back to Goodwill to potentially get a tax-write off slip. \u201cTry to make the most out of what you\u2019re given.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"CreepLA<\/p>\n

PUBLIC RELATIONS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

Event Publicists<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Marketing is a key investment for Fix each year. He suggests that \u201cnot knowing the proper ways of navigating the press circuit in Los Angeles can be detrimental\u2014and a publicist can help you navigate that.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix never had an in-house person to manage that, so he opted to have a third-party manage publicity. This covers Facebook ads, outreach to Los Angeles media, and print work.<\/p>\n

Takeaway Items<\/strong><\/h4>\n

A signature of CreepLA is the Creep Photobooth. \u201cIt\u2019s been the best billboard for us!\u201d Fix exclaims. But while the photobooth has seen success, other sharable items have not been so successful. \u201cThose CreepLA bandanas\u2014those were so much money; I\u2019ll never do those again. It was something I thought was so important, but just didn\u2019t work.\u201d With a price tag of $3.60 per bandana, the marketing was just not worth it.<\/p>\n

But Fix is quick to stress the value of a takeaway item. \u201cAny sort of takeaway item, any sort of promotional moment or sharable experience\u2014people crave those. People love to post them on social media and tell their friends\u2014especially when it\u2019s something good or worth keeping.\u201d<\/p>\n

Press Nights and Timing<\/strong><\/h4>\n

A main portion of public relations is their relationship with the press\u2014and Fix knows how to throw a killer launch party, with celebrities like Anna Kendrick, Brittany Snow, and Joey Fatone often making appearances. \u201cWe always host a press night where we comp everyone\u2019s tickets and provide food and drink to start our season right.\u201d<\/p>\n

However, Fix admits he struggles with the best time to invite press to his events. \u201cI\u2019m so eager. I want to open our doors with the press and media\u2014but when I look at how strong a show becomes once our actors are warmed up and comfortable, I think I should wait to have press come through. But a part of me feels that I don\u2019t want the public to have to pay prior to press reviews. It\u2019s my own struggle with timing.\u201d Despite this struggle, Fix normally goes big with a premier at the start of his season.<\/p>\n

Fix also discusses the timing of when to talk to press. \u201cIf you\u2019re doing a certain season or holiday show, you need to start planning two months prior.\u201d For him, his shows are usually tied to the Halloween season, so he suggests \u201chaving conversations with everyone\u2014whether its your own team or the media\u2014in the middle of July to prep for a September release of information.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"The<\/p>\n

Press Invites <\/strong><\/h4>\n

He also states the importance of inviting press that relates to your show. \u201cI feel like everyone is a writer, a blogger, or a YouTube personality nowadays. You are hosting every single person that comes through your doors\u2014and it costs you. It\u2019s still a full operating night.\u201d Depending on the size of your production, adding another person could mean very little to you in terms of a ticket price or it could be a significant portion of your run (especially for one-night events).<\/p>\n

For larger productions, companies can sometimes offer press a plus one (or press will ask for a plus one). Fix recommends being clear about whether you\u2019ll allow this or not. \u201cMake sure you reach out and target the proper audience. Everyone is down to ask for a free ticket; but you, unfortunately, need to be selective on that process to make sure it is the right fit. You don\u2019t need mommy bloggers coming if that\u2019s not your target audience.\u201d Fix also recommends to not offer all your friends comps either. \u201cIt\u2019s all a piece of the pie; it adds up.\u201d<\/p>\n

House Tickets<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Another free ticket comes from the theater term, \u201chouse tickets\u201d. These are a small amount of tickets that are available if any press or VIPs want to come in throughout the season. \u201cFor each night, we pull a small amount of tickets that have not been release publicly to accommodate those people. That\u2019s kind of a little trick.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"The<\/p>\n

Exclusivity<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Exclusivity is a great way to sell tickets. Firelight Collective<\/a> utilized this when selling tickets to Stars in the Night<\/a><\/em>. A one night \u2013 or one weekend \u2013 event will generate more demand than a show that runs for a month or two. \u201cI think it\u2019s a really smart marketing tool,\u201d Fix agrees. \u201cA lot of companies are creating really small, intimate experiences that allow them to extend, extend, extend. What a smart business model.\u201d That\u2019s exactly what Firelight Collective did\u2014they extended once their first weekend sold out. \u201cEven if your input a month is only 30; if you extend, it creates a hype which is a nice trick or tool people can use.\u201d<\/p>\n

While Fix sold The Willows<\/em>\u2019 tickets one month at a time to generate a similar demand, for his Halloween shows he can\u2019t use the same tactic. \u201cWe\u2019re open for 6 weeks; we have to get as many bodies as possible in here. Let\u2019s go!\u201d<\/p>\n

The Importance of Photography<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix ensures that his imagery and aesthetic are striking and evocative. \u201cWe live in such a swipe right society, if you don\u2019t have an image that just catches you and causes an instant reaction, you may get passed over.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix tells us about a social media class that he took to learn more about composition, what colors evoke various feelings, adding a call to action to images, and creating brand associations. \u201cI can\u2019t stress the importance of photography enough. We\u2019ve been so lucky that we captured some great images; images that make me say \u2018Damn, these photos make our show look good.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n

These pictures are necessary for your press kits and directly impact the ticket sales. For the press kit, Fix recommends \u201cyou have a pitch sheet on both you and your company members, along with your company\u2019s mission,\u201d and numerous pictures. We have seen this time and time again, with E3W Productions<\/a>\u2019 In Another Room<\/a><\/em> selling out prior to their first ever show based on the merit of the imagery.<\/p>\n

Photography also extends beyond the current show, impacting all future shows. Pictures become a time capsule; \u201cIt becomes a talking point for future projects that you will produce.\u201d If people missed out on previous events, these pictures will be their introduction to you and your work. \u201cOur imagery and aesthetic is representative of our past work; it\u2019s something that I can show off and be proud of. It\u2019s also where you\u2019ll find those partners and sponsors.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"Jeremey<\/p>\n

Website and Branding<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix discusses the importance of having a user-friendly website that also matches the aesthetic and vibe of your show and brand. He remarks on the website of Scout Expedition Co., which feels both adventurous and fun: \u201cTheir website is lovely; it makes me intrigued; it\u2019s so them.\u201d<\/p>\n

For Fix, \u201cOur brand has always been very simple, basic, and modern with clean lines. I like black and white.\u201d When you see an image from The Willows<\/em> or from CreepLA, it\u2019s clear that it is a Just Fix It Production image. \u201cOur brand will naturally transcend into the production; it all becomes an ecosystem supporting one big narrative.\u201d<\/p>\n

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OPERATING NEEDS <\/strong><\/h3>\n

The Talent<\/strong><\/h4>\n

The number of actors needed has one of the largest influences on your budget. \u201cYou have a story and you need actors to tell that story; that\u2019s truly your main expense.\u201d Fix has done both large shows and smaller shows Each number was chosen specifically to tell the narrative and match the performance. \u201cThe Willows<\/em> was a smart model for us because it was an intimate show with only eight actors. With these big shows, LORE had twenty-nine actors, talent is such a big expense.\u201d As addressed above, Just Fix It Productions always pays their actors. \u201cIf you are a business owner selling tickets to your work, you need to pay your talent.\u201d<\/p>\n

There are some experiences that do not utilize in-person actors to tell the story\u2014like Scout Expedition Co\u2019s The Nest<\/em>, which used audio cassette tapes to drive the narrative. \u201cI think escape rooms are a great model because there\u2019s usually no actors, just puzzles.\u201d<\/p>\n

Security<\/strong><\/h4>\n

\u201cGenerally, you have to have security there, whether you\u2019re serving alcohol or not. Usually, the Fire Marshall expects it for public assembly.\u201d Fix quoted this expense is nearly 500 dollars nightly for two to three guards.<\/p>\n

Crew<\/strong><\/h4>\n

\u201cEveryone, from the person running your front door to your stage managers to your lighting staff to your bartenders, make up your crew. That\u2019s why you\u2019ll see people like me bartending during LORE because it\u2019s just another expense.\u201d Fix quotes 9 crew members cost him over $1,000 per night.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong>Dependability<\/strong><\/p>\n

With Los Angeles being the epicenter for entertainment, Fix explains that everyone has to look out for themselves\u2014they\u2019re always searching for the next big thing or a bigger job. An important quality to him is dependability and consistency. \u201cWhen trying to wrangle an ensemble of 20 actors and 9 crew members, I don\u2019t want to have to wonder if they\u2019ll show up today.\u201d Fix explains this is yet another reason why he ensures he pays his actors and makes them feel like part of a family.<\/p>\n

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GENERAL COSTS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

Kickstarter<\/strong><\/h4>\n

\u201cThe problem with theater and live events is that you have none of the working capital until you sell tickets. Unless you\u2019re just wealthy, you\u2019re living off of credit cards or you\u2019re living off of profits from the previous year. That\u2019s the hardest challenge.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix mentions Kickstarter as a strong way to get working capital up-front. CoAct Productions<\/a> successfully funded The Sideshow<\/a><\/em> via Kickstarter, offering tickets, VIP experiences, and handwritten letters to backers. Other companies that do more consistent and frequent shows have used Patreon to fund their shows, such as the ABC Project, Santu Productions<\/a>, and Hurting<\/a>. Fix sees the potential in this: \u201cI would love to have you come in and do a behind-the-scenes tour, and you\u2019ll get to take home a set piece.\u201d<\/p>\n

Reinvestment<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix says, \u201cI have not lost money since I\u2019ve opened this business, but I\u2019ve not made money either.\u201d As he mentioned above with props and costumes, he is a firm believer in reinvesting his profits into Just Fix It. \u201cEverything I\u2019ve made, I\u2019ve put into the next show. So there\u2019s been no personal profits. \u00a0But at the end of the day, the business itself is profitable.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"Jeremey<\/p>\n

A Longer Run<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Once you\u2019ve secured all of your props, costumes, make-up, and so forth (your fixed costs), the only costs that remain are your rent, actor and crew salaries, and beyond (your variable costs). So the budget for a single show may not be profitable, but when extended over a season\u2014you may start to see a profit. \u201cThe only problem with extending and longer runs is ensuring that you sell out and that the demand is still there.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cIt\u2019s always been wild. The first year, we didn\u2019t come out of the red until the final week.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix celebrates this end to his show. While the profits for the first show were extremely minimal, he still says it got him momentum. \u201cWe reached an audience; we were able to build a brand. There\u2019s so many things I can speak to; it\u2019s not about the money.\u201d<\/p>\n

General Lessons<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix speaks candidly about some mistakes he\u2019s made: \u201cI probably don\u2019t need to go source costumes, I can just go to Goodwill and make some home alterations. I don\u2019t need to hire a makeup artist like I did one year. We can instead teach actors how to apply their own makeup. These are all simple things that help us save a little money. Being a good business owner is always refining processes and reducing the cost of operating.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI always joke with Daniel [the co-artistic director and writer for Just Fix It], \u2018Daniel, I think the first time you ever held a screw gun was the first time we built a show together.\u2019\u201d Fix says there\u2019s not one part of a production that he doesn\u2019t have his hands on.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

CITY OF LOS ANGELES<\/strong><\/h3>\n

Immersive theater does span the gamut in terms of legality. Small shows sometimes don\u2019t have the correct permitting, and even larger shows may not understand the correct permits needed. To Fix, careful consideration of permitting is essential to the health of immersive theater in the long run. While we at Immersed are not advocating small bootstrap companies to change things overnight, we want to provide this information, especially for the larger productions that need it.<\/p>\n

A City of Dreams; A City of Rules<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix doesn\u2019t want to stand on a soapbox and proclaim: \u201cIf you\u2019re running illegally, you shouldn\u2019t be opening; you\u2019re going to ruin it for everyone else.\u201d But he does confess some anxiety. \u201cFor every good business operator, there\u2019s five bad ones. And that can screw us in the long run.\u201d<\/p>\n

Permits, Permits, Permits<\/strong><\/h4>\n

\u201cEverything costs money; and there\u2019s a permit for everything.\u201d Fix goes over examples for us. \u201cYou may need separate permits from Building and Safety, the Police Department, and the Fire Marshall.\u201d<\/p>\n

Where do you start then? Fix recommends going to the city and applying for a TSE Permit (Temporary Special Event Permit) through the Department of Building and Safety. These are currently $137.80 per event. But these only have a maximum duration of five consecutive days. \u201cCities like West Hollywood only approve for three consecutive days; the City of Glendale, I think, is seven days. You need to first determine the scope of your work and how long your run is. Then you need to put together a packet of your floor renderings, your fire emergency plan, and so on\u2014and these all need to be professional.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix also tell us that \u201cthe City of Los Angeles is simply not granting TSE Permits to nontraditional venues like they would in the past.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cThe way we\u2019ve been able to navigate the system was using TSE Permits; but now that they are not being granted from the city\u2026 anyone who\u2019s producing work in the City of Los Angeles that is not in a banquet room, a convention floor, or so forth, it is not approved. I repeat, it is not approved.\u201d<\/p>\n

Editor note: While this information is correct at the time of this article’s release, the climate in LA is slowly changing and the policy on this permit may be updated in the future.\u00a0<\/em>
\n\"Jeremey<\/p>\n

The Risks<\/strong><\/h4>\n

What\u2019s the risk? Well to some, who are doing this in their house or on a hiking trail, there\u2019s very little. \u201cLos Angeles isn\u2019t going to put a spotlight on these people and follow you every day. They might slap your wrist, give you a small fine, and then you can go on your merry way. You may even be able to open your doors again the next day. But I don\u2019t want to risk that.\u201d<\/p>\n

Fix wants to control everything he can to minimize risk. He can\u2019t control if tickets are going to sell or if people are going to come, but he can try to control not getting shut down.<\/p>\n

The Uncertainty of the Permit<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Even if you are granted a TSE Permit, Fix tells us they aren\u2019t granted until the week prior to your event. \u201cYou apply for 9 weeks of TSE Permits all at once, but they approve them week by week. So now you\u2019re invested; you\u2019re selling show tickets and you don\u2019t even know if your show will be granted permission from the city until Monday at 9:00am when they drop it off at your location. I\u2019m biting my fingernails the entire time.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Fire Marshall<\/strong><\/h4>\n

The Ghost Ship fire in Oakland changed the guidelines here in Los Angeles. \u201cThe city is now turning down big Red Bull events and shutting down large places that are on PeerSpace. Warehouses no longer count as event spaces. You have to get a Change of Use Permit for that.\u201d<\/p>\n

To make things safer, \u201cEverything has to be flame retardant, four-foot egresses, handicapped accessible, emergency flow plans, a fire extinguisher, and so on and so on. Also, normally, the LAFD will want to see what kind of operation you\u2019re doing. So on your first night, you have to pay them to come, do an inspection, and be onsite so they can see how you manage your experience. That\u2019s $80 dollars an hour for five hours.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"CreepLA<\/p>\n

ABC Permits<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Fix tells us that applying for an alcohol permit is one of the more complex permits. For that reason, \u201cI use a charity partner, but then 100% of your bar profits have to go to the charity. We do a hosted bar every night, and that is all going back to do some good. That\u2019s a big mission statement for us.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cIf you want to collect a profit on anything, you\u2019ll have to speak to a concessionaire and have them apply for permits. You\u2019ll have to hit a certain number of concessions for them to even say \u2018Yeah, that\u2019s worth it for us.\u2019 If I\u2019m only going to bring in $500 worth of food and beverage, it\u2019s just not worth it for the concessionaire to waste one of their permits.\u201d<\/p>\n

Permitted Locations<\/strong><\/h4>\n

If they aren\u2019t granting TSE Permits anymore, then how did CreepLA do their show? \u201cI was granted one because I used a space that has a CUP, a Change of Use Permit, that approves public assembly, events, conferences, and conventions. Because I was in a space that you are allowed to produce and do that kind of work.\u201d Fix tells us that finding a location that is coded and licensed for your event will make things far easier for you. \u201cMost locations coded for this are libraries, schools, convention centers, and other large spaces for people. What that means is that the general public come and navigate the building without having to give it too much thought\u2014much like apartment complexes would have emergency exits and signs.\u201d<\/p>\n

However, using these spaces has its drawbacks as well. \u201cWhen you use these big event centers, they are used to getting $7,000 for a single day. So when I come in and say, \u2018Hey, I want to produce a four-month event here. Can we do it?\u2019 and they just look at me like, \u2018I\u2019m not missing out on all that money. I\u2019d make more money just having an event here four times in one month rather than giving you the space for four months.\u2019\u201d This is a constant battle in Los Angeles.<\/p>\n

Red Tape<\/strong><\/h4>\n

All of this is risk for the city. Fix discusses his first year: \u201cWe had so much red tape because no one knew who we were. The city came in and checked our space before building, during building, and during operations. They came in constantly. But fast forward to year three, since we\u2019ve been running so much, they kind of know our name. They\u2019ve seen over the past years that we haven\u2019t run into any issues and we\u2019ve done everything by the book. It\u2019s not that they are more lenient per se, but it\u2019s that we now know how to navigate the city. We know who to talk to. There\u2019s no textbook on this\u2026 I literally just spend hours at the Department of Building and Safety, just sitting, waiting for my number to be called just to ask simple questions.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Comfort of Home<\/strong><\/h4>\n

The Willows<\/em> was run out of a private residence, and Fix says they found something really special with that experience. \u201cIt\u2019s a totally different thing for residential and HOAs\u2014the city can\u2019t really touch that. But neighbors can shut you down.\u201d But how do you be a good neighbor? Do you let them know prior or do you keep it a secret? Fix doesn\u2019t have an all-encompassing answer for this; it\u2019s dependent on the show. \u201cSometimes, people just have it out for people. It\u2019s added risk.\u201d\u00a0 Fix notes that in the past inviting neighbors to the experience and being aware of community guidelines has avoided potential conflict.<\/p>\n

Final Thoughts<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Ultimately, this comes down to risk. \u201cIf you don\u2019t mind risking your experience being shut down, then do whatever you feel like you need to do for your business. But if you want to eliminate that risk, then yeah, you need to get into somewhere that\u2019s Public-Assembly-approved, like a convention floor or banquet hall. That\u2019s the only way to operate at this time within the L.A. Market\u201d.<\/p>\n

\"The<\/p>\n

CONCLUSIONS<\/strong><\/h3>\n

Immersive theater is expensive, it is a business, and it carries a lot of risk. Being aware of these hidden costs and risks can only help creators budget better and make experiences safer. This article may pertain exactly to what you\u2019re doing, or it may not pertain at all\u2014but either way, I hope there\u2019s at least one thing in this article that is applicable to you, opens your eyes, or makes you think. And even for those who are taking on the risk and surviving in the underground, I hope it gives us pause to think about risk a moment.<\/p>\n

Despite all the talk of price, saving money, and risk, Fix still wants to ensure that the customer is given the best experience. \u201cI build this for our audience. At the end of the day, all of this is built and done for the guests\u2026 I never want to cut back or have an audience member think something feels cheap. I want people to be blown away with what they have come into. The worlds and moments great immersive experiences create are priceless\u2014this is truly the future of storytelling.\u201d<\/p>\n

To us, it provides a sense of discovery, freedom, and wonder\u2014and we\u2019d pay anything to feel that. We tell him his shows are our adult playground. Fix agrees, \u201cI never want to grow up.\u201d<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Below is an interview with Justin Fix of Just Fix It Productions, detailing the cost, risks, lessons, and recommendations that all go into running an immersive company and producing an experience. Use it as a primer or do your own thing\u2014this is only meant as a helpful document for those who want to learn from…<\/p>\n

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